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 Post subject: Blackwaterside
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:56 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 633
Location: Suihua, Heilongjiang Province, China
Now we have songs writ clearly by a soul and songs anonymous and traditional and I think they all must be the same.

That is someone writes a tune at some time, in some circumstance.
What we know as `traditional' and `anonymous' simply means that the sands of time have eradicated from current knowledge who writer of tune was.


And times past aint as times now wit copyright and general communication as it is.


So some soul, some individual like you and me (prob a woman to my guess) wrote ` Down by Blackwaterside', only to have it appropriated, eventually by Jimmy Page, who had the gall to actually claim writership of such tune; and poor Irish washerwoman what wrote tune long dead.

egads what a world.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:41 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:23 pm
Posts: 699
Location: United Kingdom
Ditto Dylan & Girl From the North Country


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:06 am 

Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 5:27 pm
Posts: 19
Location: New York
The thing about those old folk songs is that,before they were recorded,they were generally passed down through the years as part of an oral tradition rather than through formal notation and so could change quite drastically over time as different performers reinterpreted them.So I think it's entirely likely that the above imagined washerwoman wouldn't have even recognized the song that Jimmy Page recorded,although it's true that he's certainly NOT the "author" of the song.

But it's pretty commonly known that Zeppelin has been guilty of this type of thing quite often during their career and it brings to mind another instance,the song Dazed and Confused,another song that Page has claimed authorship of.If you're familiar with the Zeppelin recording but haven't heard the Jake Holmes version that preceded it,you should go to Youtube and have a listen.When I first heard it I couldn't stop laughing,not because it's not a good record(it is)but because Jake Holmes,while not being a commercially successful singer/songwriter,went on to become an incredibly successful commercial jingle writer/singer.And I would say his voice became almost universally known here in the US back then,although almost no one would be able to put a name to the voice.So when I first heard the sound of this voice that I so thoroughly associated with these obnoxiously cheery jingles singing this morose blues rock song it was the best laugh I'd had in a while.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:32 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 633
Location: Suihua, Heilongjiang Province, China
Yes Its true that the old folk songs changed drastically with time; which observation brings up the philosophical question of when does one thing become another thing? Which is at the heart of the issue.

But mostly the points I wished to make is a belief that every song was written originally by someone, that is to say that a song has either always existed or it has come into existence.

The point with Jimmy Page was more that he ripped off Bert Jansch, for the Jansch version of `Blackwaterside' is near identical to Zeps `Blackmountainside' except for some superfluous adornment. Yet Jansch cited the song as `traditional arr. Jansch' and Page (initially) claimed authorship of it... later I think it was changed to `traditional arr. Page' or something.

And Matts point about Dylan.... well Dylan has come under a lot of criticism about many of his songs with respects plagiarism; there is I believe still a long running lawsuit about such.. Google `Dylan plagiarism' and you'll find tons of stuff.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 633
Location: Suihua, Heilongjiang Province, China
A few more things to consider:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk8OsZESTxg

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8maB3e_GuQ

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzDC4284 ... re=related

So John Martyn does justice to `Spencer the Rover', whoever he was, written nonetheless by someone about someone; something real that actually happened, or close to it a long time ago.

And Traffic did justice to `John Barleycorn' whoever he was, but actually not anyone at all, but just a concept; written I'm sure a lot earlier than ` Spencer the Rover, but still written at some time essentially by some one.

And Sandy wrote `Who Knows Where the Time Goes' ; which if she'd writ ( if such could have been done) 200 years earlier, we'd all know as `Traditional or anonymous'....


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:45 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 633
Location: Suihua, Heilongjiang Province, China
Hoagy Carmichael the composer(?) of the eternal `Stardust' once said something like `the tune has always existed, I just found it.'

This is Platonism sure and simple and I'm still not sure if it's correct.

But...

If it is then `copyright' should be termed something like `discovery fee'.

With all the money going to God.

Ha ha ha ha ha....(lmgo)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:53 am 

Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 633
Location: Suihua, Heilongjiang Province, China
Jake Holmes. Dazed and Confused.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc


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