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Paean to Asymmetry.

 
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bmore



Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 631
Location: Suihua, Heilongjiang Province, China

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Paean to Asymmetry. Reply with quote

A recent exchange with Ostar on a different topic caused me to think again about shapes.

Shapes must be either in time or space, because that is where everything is.

Things like ideas, thoughts, mental phenomena, (including eg. songs) seem to exist primarily in time; and have little or ambiguous representation in space. ( A cd, a score, is not a song....like one of my Prof's used to ask when discussing ontology....`Where is Beethoven's 5th symphony?)

Yet both physical and mental objects can be thought of as having `shapes'.
And we use such terminology all the time in our general usage.
I think that a term that can have such broad general usage should be investigated; though not by me, not now, for me weary ol' brain is tired.


But aside from the philosophical, which is far too hard on me noggin, I can consider the aesthetic question; that is, `which shapes do I like?'



And I find that I love asymmetry.
I dislike straight lines. I dislike rectilinearity. I hate an English Garden.
(there are no straight lines in nature)

And this may explain, in part, my love for Nick Drake's music.
It's all slightly bent.
None of his songs are formulaic; there is always some twist or unexpected variation....`From the Morning' .. very simple straightforward song right ?..... nope. `Black Eyed Dog' ... big ringing bass note that comes out of nowhere (and that some even think is mishit) that absolutely makes the song.
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Ostar



Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 210
Location: Enschede, Netherlands

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a matter of fact this reminds me of a discussion I had with my wife some time ago, she had the idea of creating a perfume bottle shaped like a fart Idea
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LostBoy



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 206
Location: Oxfordshire UK

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a shift towards thinking that time is not seperate to space and that the two should be thought of as "together" as space time. In physics some think that in order to understand more we must look at time in an entirley different manner. We must not forget that humans "invented" time (for want of a better expression) to make it easier to live our lives.
I don't want to think too much about this as I may well end up screaming in some dark corner.
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bmore



Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Suihua, Heilongjiang Province, China

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well events, which are timely, must happen somewhere, which implies spaciality, so i reckon it that ol yin/yang shish bang business goin on.


Where else could you put a fart bottle that sounds like perfume?
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LostBoy



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They happen somewhere but do they happen "everywhere"? point being that as everything made of matter is expanding, it must be expanding in all and every direction. Multiple Universe theory anyone? So a fart in a bottle can be many or none, depending on your point of view that is.
And don't get me started on shapes. I've struggled with shapes and the need for them for ten years now and am no closer to resolving the problem of them not feeling "right". I envy people who can play with shapes and sleep well at night.
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JHT



Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously I can't leave this topic alone.

The senses play a defining role in determining the character of one's experiences.

The senses comprise the colors of the experiential painting one beholds so to speak.

This promotes further thought about consciousness and the senses.

Consciousness seems to be comprised of (1) a dimension of time (2) elements relating to at least one but in the case of human beings several sensory modalities and (3) a capacity of discrimination so one can tell one thing from another.

Suppose one takes a materialist approach and proposes that consciousness resides in a single specific physical molecule let us call it X. And let us say the different senses result when different side groups are attached to X. So conscious vision consists in X-V audition in X-A olfaction in X-O and so forth.

It seems that on the basis of experiences within one sense modality one cannot appreciate the qualitative nature of other sense modalities. From visual experience one cannot divine the qualitative nature of auditory experience. On the basis of nutritional appetite one cannot divine the nature of sexual appetite. Even within a given sense modality there is difficulty in conceiving the qualitative nature of that not actually experienced. One can it is true imagine different shades of a color one knows. But from the experience of seeing red for example one cannot know the qualitative nature of green.

The senses all are completely different from one another except that each manifests elements of time and discrimination.

An interesting aspects of proposing different senses according to the X-A X-B ... X-N molecular hypothesis is that one also can hypothesize the creation of an indefinite number of neosenses beyond those of which we actually dispose. If such neosenses are indeed possible this opens the door to all kinds of qualitative neo-experiences. "Different guitar tunings".

Spatial concepts are largely a function of the sense of vision. If you take pleasure in spatial asymmetry bmore then you might especially enjoy neovisual experiences. Once they are synthesized ...

The problem with the materialist approach is that all ideas of molecules are products of consciousness. Yet at the same time consciousness seems to be a function of the material domain. Essentially it is an aspect of the Problem of Solipsism we discussed earlier. Looming in the background always is the question of what reality really is.

Has this anything to do with Nick Drake? I do try to remain pertinent. Well … yes. Because we won't be able to access lost souls until we answer the questions relating to consciousness.

I am following the Joe Boyd thread with interest but will be away for awhile. I am going to miss the Gathering in Warwickshire by just four days unfortunately.
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Matt (admin)



Joined: 29 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JHT wrote:

Has this anything to do with Nick Drake?


Not really so I moved it here Very Happy
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bmore



Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Suihua, Heilongjiang Province, China

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Synesthesia anyone?

How much does Tuesday weigh? (in kg.)

How to show the fly the way out of the fly bottle?

Dig?

No?

Not surprised.
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LostBoy



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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Location: Oxfordshire UK

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where's my hat ? Laughing
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bmore



Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Suihua, Heilongjiang Province, China

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“What is your aim in Philosophy?”

“To show the fly the way out of the fly-bottle” (Philosophical Investigations) – Wittgenstein

Wittgenstein thought that the pursuit of philosophy in its traditional sense is pointless. Philosophers who scoured far and wide for a structured logical form applicable to everything were deluded and wasting their time, much like a fly who constantly tries to escape a transparent bottle by banging against the side. Wittgenstein saw it as his job to show these tenacious philosophers out of the top of the fly-bottle and to see philosophy for what it really is – a futile attempt to find an all-encompassing logical form of thought behind the mess that is ordinary language…


yeah thats sorta right.
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bmore



Joined: 14 Dec 2006
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Location: Suihua, Heilongjiang Province, China

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Everyday language is a part of the human organism and is no less complicated than it. It is not humanly possible to gather immediately from it what the logic of language is. Language disguises thought. So much so, that from the outward form of the clothing it is impossible to infer the form of the thought beneath it, because the outward form of the clothing is not designed to reveal the form of the body, but for entirely different purposes. The tacit conventions on which the understanding of everyday language depends are enormously complicated."



Read this carefully. Its not yet 100 years old, but gettin close. And still not properly appreciated.

`Language disguises thought' huh?

`The tacit conventions on which the understanding of everyday language depends are enormously complicated.'

Put that in ye pipe and smoke it.
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JHT



Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The above I'll take as an invitation to respond.

About Wittgenstein. And others.

To say philosophy is not possible is not helpful because it leaves open the question of what does and what does not qualify as philosophy. The trick lies in distinguishing the one situation from the other.

Language can disguise matters. But language also can provide useful information about matters. The trick lies in distinguishing the one situation from the other.

Some problems may be insoluble. Others likely are soluble. Some may be soluble tomorrow but not today. That a dog cannot do calculus does not mean calculus cannot be done. The trick lies in distinguishing among these situations. In fact one likely cannot. Consequenly there always is value in perservering.

Is anyone in possession of the absolute and ultimate truth? Is it even possible to answer this question? Even if the response to both these questions is in the negative it does not really matter so much because one tends to proceed on the basis of those rationales which are the most persuasive and which work the best. Even if they are not the ultimate and absolute truth. Everything is propaganda. But some propaganda may also reflect the absolute and ultimate truth. The trick lies in distinguishing the one situation from the other.

Life is Machiavellian. And life goes on.

And Wittgenstein thought he had us fooled.
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JHT



Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand you're taking a trip to England. In ... November? Have a really great time and I know you will. Surely you will visit Tanworth-in-Arden. Surely it will mean something to you to see that if you have not already seen it before. Of course be careful cycling.
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